Montag, 17. Dezember 2007

ஓசை செல்லாவுடன் கம்யூனிஸ உரையாடல்

அனானி #84599848294823423 அறிவுரையினை மேற்கொண்டு இது தனி பதிவாகிறது.

OSAI Chella said...

ha ha தமிழ்மணிக்கு சுத்தமாக அறிவு இல்லை! இந்த கூற்றை நான் நிரூபிக்க தேவையில்லை... காரணம் இல்லை என்று சொல்பவர் நிருபிக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம் இல்லை! :-)

சரி லூஸ்ல விடுங்க. அசுரன் அவர்களை நான் அரைகுறை என்று பட்டம் குடுத்ததற்கு தியாகு போன்றவர்கள் ரத்தம் துடிதுடிக்க வெறியோடு பாய்ந்தார்கள். ஆனால் தத்துவங்கள் பொதுவாக ஏட்டுச் சுரைக்காய்கள் என்ற சூழலை உணர்ந்து இப்போது கம்முனு இருக்கேன்! மற்றபடி இல்லாத ஒன்று எப்படி ஆழமாக மனதில் இருக்க முடிகிறது? உம்: கடவுள், பேய், பிசாசு போன்ற உளவியல் சிந்தனை வீச்சுகள் அவ்வப்போது என் மவுனத்தை கலைத்து வருகின்றன! நல்ல விவாதத் திறமை உங்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது... பார்ப்போம் இது எங்கே செல்கிறது என்று!

அன்புடன்
ஓசை செல்லா


15. Dezember 2007 09:28

நீதிபதி said...
// OSAI Chella said...
ha ha தமிழ்மணிக்கு சுத்தமாக அறிவு இல்லை! இந்த கூற்றை நான் நிரூபிக்க தேவையில்லை... காரணம் இல்லை என்று சொல்பவர் நிருபிக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம் இல்லை! :-)//

ஆம் இல்லை என்று நீங்கள் நிருபிக்க வேண்டியதில்லை. ஏனென்றால் இருக்கு என்று அவர் நிரூபித்துக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்.


15. Dezember 2007 10:30

தமிழ்மணி said...
நன்றி ஓசை செல்லா.

என்னுடைய அறிவு விவாதத்துக்கு எடுத்துக்கொள்ளப்பட்டால், நீங்கள் சொல்வதுதான். யார் இருக்கிறது என்று வாதிடுகிறார்களோ அவர்கள்தானே இருக்கிறது என்று நிரூபிக்கவேண்டும்?

கடவுள் பேய் போன்றவை கதியும் இதுதான். if you make extraordinary claims, they need extraordinary proofs.


15. Dezember 2007 10:38

தமிழ்மணி said...
Thanks Neethipathi!


15. Dezember 2007 16:11

OSAI Chella said...
Vanakkam nanbare. Forgive me for my English... I still belive Communism is the best noble deal around. Leave that stuff apart... now we are discussing the evolution of Human Society from Cave Men days. right?

Then the Capitalistic System, the Generalised Term is having one important Charecteristic. That is Creation of Surplus Value! This Surplus Value Creation could not be possible in those days since no one is working UNDER someone.

In this scenario your arguement is childish... having a Land ... Shit... it is simply possesed by Brutal Physical Power and no way related to the Market Driven, Surpluss Value Driven, Economical Power Driven Capilastic Realestate Business Product! Got it!

Like this I found far lesser STUFF in your weak arguements! Moreover your logic.. puts you in a comfortable Place! Only Asuran have to prove!! Catch you some time later in the same thread!


15. Dezember 2007 16:29

Anonym said...
Hi This is Anony (Old).
//Osai Chella said :
Then the Capitalistic System, the Generalised Term is having one important Charecteristic. That is Creation of Surplus Value! This Surplus Value Creation could not be possible in those days since no one is working UNDER someone.//

I dont know if Mr Oai Chella read my earleir arguments about the Surplus Value. Surplus Value is not created because someone is working under someone else, but the production commands a market. If there is no market for a particular product , even if the labor is of equal value, it does not generate any SV. For example a person working for himself- self-employed, or one man business- also prodcues excess value, when his product is in demand.
Thanks
Anaony(old)


15. Dezember 2007 18:59

தமிழ்மணி said...
//Vanakkam nanbare. Forgive me for my English... I still belive Communism is the best noble deal around. Leave that stuff apart...
//
Dear Osai Chella,
what you "belive" is immaterial. People have faith in zillion things. Faith does not prove things.

// now we are discussing the evolution of Human Society from Cave Men days. right?
//
No. It is the presumption that somewhere in the past we were all living in a communist society. And somehow we will go back to that communist society. That is what a communist claims. I say that is founded on ignorance.

//Then the Capitalistic System, the Generalised Term is having one important Charecteristic. That is Creation of Surplus Value! This Surplus Value Creation could not be possible in those days since no one is working UNDER someone.
//

Anony1 has explained the myth of surplus value! Please read his arguments. There is always a give and take between even animals. So do you want to argue that any deal between animals are also generating this mythical "surplus value"? Do you know symbiotic animals? What do you make of them?

//In this scenario your arguement is childish... having a Land ... Shit... it is simply possesed by Brutal Physical Power and no way related to the Market Driven, Surpluss Value Driven, Economical Power Driven Capilastic Realestate Business Product! Got it!
//

Nope.
Market driven is the best deal.
Anything else is mythical dream.

//Like this I found far lesser STUFF in your weak arguements! Moreover your logic.. puts you in a comfortable Place! Only Asuran have to prove!! Catch you some time later in the same thread!
//
My arguments may be weak. But looks like the arguments against mine are even more weaker! :-))


15. Dezember 2007 19:30

OSAI Chella said...
ha ha... i may touch your ego here and there...well experienced in it.. again read your comment.. I said in those primitive times definitely brutal power only gave land rights than the economical power.. accept or deny.. (who wants your opinion.. market is the best?!! ).. then i may proceed...


then i love to play around logical sequences... illai endru solbavan ondrum solla prove panna thevaiyillai... then how come you actively object when some said.. YES it exists! Actually you too wanna prove something but dont wanna accept the reponsibilty.. ver heard these words..

Discussions are all about sharing of knowledge wheras the arguement is all about sharing of ignorance...

will keep you busy by my comments till you search for a few tips about UNLEARNING!lol!

With love and laughter
Osai Chella


16. Dezember 2007 04:57

OSAI Chella said...
Surplus Value/ Simbiotic relations.. ha.. once i find time will remove the anony's underwear/covers here! But thanks for providing a place to engage..Asuran and Me could not engage for a long cause he was sorrounded by Jalras praising him as an authority on Marxism... and found that it is too early to say such things!lol! Bye and take care.. will visit the thread later.


Anbudan
OSai Chella


16. Dezember 2007 05:05

OSAI Chella said...
Dont drag this here.. just for reading pleasure i an giving a link to my article that talks on Marxism in a new light / understanding!
Click here to Read

Then for your grey matter.. Does unprovable exists?

With Regards
Osai Chella


16. Dezember 2007 05:18

தமிழ்மணி said...
Thanks Osai chella.

Always glad.


16. Dezember 2007 10:51

சேவற்கொடியோன் said...
தமிழ்மணி, செல்லா

புராதன பொதுவுடமை சமூகம் இருந்தது என முதலில் கூறியது அசுரன் & கோ தான்.அதனால் அதை நிருபிக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம் அவர்களுக்குத்தான் இருக்கிறது.

'புராதன பொதுவுடமை சமூகம் இருந்தது, இருந்தது' என தெருவெங்கும் பிரச்சாரம் நடத்திவிட்டு, அதை பெரும் பிரச்சாரமாக கூறி கட்சிக்கு ஆள்பிடித்துவிட்டு அது எங்கே இருந்தது என விவரமானவர் ஒருத்தர் கேள்வி கேட்டால் 'நீ நிருபி' என பிளேட்டை மாற்றி போடுவது சமாளிப்பே தவிர திறமையல்ல.

'தமிழ்மணிக்கு அறிவு இல்லை' என்கிற உங்கள் வாதத்தை அவர் தமது பல பதிவுகள் மூலம் பொய்பித்துவிட்டார்.நீங்களே ஒத்துக்கொண்டிருப்பது போல் " நல்ல விவாதத் திறமை உங்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது... ". அறிவு இல்லாமல் யாரும் விவாதம் நடத்த முடியாது, இல்லையா?:-D

இருக்கிறது, இல்லை என்று வார்த்தைகளில் புகுந்து விளையாடுவது 'மாட்டிக்கொண்ட பின் சாமர்த்தியமாக சமாளிப்பதை' காட்டுகிறதே தவிர வாத திறமையை காட்டவில்லை:-D. தமிழ்மணியின் வாதத்துக்கு பதிலாக அவர்கள் வைப்பதெல்லாம் வெறும் கெட்ட வார்த்தைகளும், சமாளிப்புகளும் தான்.'புராதான பொதுவுடமை சமூகம் இருந்தது. இந்தா பிடி ஆதாரம்' என இந்நேரம் கொடுத்திருக்க வேண்டாமா?அப்படி கொடுக்க முடியவில்லை என்றால் அறிவியல்,வரலாற்று ஆராய்சிகள் நிருபிக்காத ஒன்றை இவர்கள் இத்தனை நாள் போலியாக கூறிக் கொண்டிருந்தார்கள் என்றுதானே ஆகிறது?


16. Dezember 2007 11:47

தமிழ்மணி said...
//does unprovable exist?//

முதலில் இடதுசாரிகளின் axioms of their theories நிரூபிக்கமுடியாதவை என்று இடதுசாரிகள் ஒப்புக்கொள்ளட்டும். பிறகு நிரூபிக்கமுடியாதது இருக்குமா இருக்காதா என்ற விவாதத்துக்கு வரலாம்.

நிரூபிக்கமுடியாதது இருக்கலாம் இல்லாமலும் இருக்கலாம்.

ஆனால், அதனை அடிப்படையாக வைத்து கம்யூனிஸ்டுகள் சொல்லும் "அறிவியற்பூர்வமான" கொள்கையை கட்டமுடியாது இல்லையா?

-
தங்களது ஆதரவு மறுமொழிக்கு நன்றி சேவற்கொடியோன்


16. Dezember 2007 14:42

OSAI Chella said...

Thanks Tamizhmani. I loved the way you answered in Tamil so that others can follow! But I spent a decade of learning and arguing in English on this subject and hence i felt home in the English lingua Franca.

Now let us go back to issue...

// ha ha... i may touch your ego here and there...well experienced in it.. again read your comment.. I said in those primitive times definitely brutal power only gave land rights than the economical power.. accept or deny.. (who wants your opinion.. market is the best?!! ).. then i may proceed...//

Forget Asuran. Balls to his arguements.. now wanna discuss with you. What do you say about primitive landholding patterns as I said!!? .. then we can proceed further...


16. Dezember 2007 18:36

தமிழ்மணி said...
Primitive land holding patterns என்று எதனை சொல்கிறீர்கள்? Brute force என்று எதனை சொல்கிறீர்கள்?
ஒரு நிலத்தில் உழைக்க பல்வேறுவிதமான முறைகள் இருக்கின்றன.
நிலத்தை ஒருவரே உபயோகப்படுத்துவதா அல்லது நிலத்தை பலர் கூடி உபயோகப்படுத்துவதா என்பது எந்த பயிரை விளைக்கிறார்கள், எந்த நிலத்தில் விளைக்கிறார்கள், அங்கு எந்த தட்பவெப்பம், மழைஅளவு இருக்கிறது என்பதை பொருத்தது.

உபயோகப்படுத்தாத நிலத்துக்கு மதிப்பு கிடையாது. உபயோகப்படுத்த முடிகிற நிலத்துக்குத்தான் மதிப்பு இருக்கும்.

மேலும் அதற்கும் இப்போது பேசுதற்கும் என்ன சம்பந்தம்?


16. Dezember 2007 19:19

Anonym said...
Dear Osai Chella,
I read your Tamil blog and the reprint of English article. I am thankful for both. Your article reflects mostly my viewpoints. That is what I have been trying to tell here- The sociological, anthropological, economic research is in point of time and not like Mathematical theorems. One can not base any ideology on the economic research or sociological studies, as they are subject to change with new data/points of view.
I did not understand the reference to my underwear. The morbid curiosity about the underwear and things under it can only point to some obesessive shortcomings - sexual or otherwise.
Asuran's arguments are also peppered with obscene/abusive language. I think only a poor debater will substitute abuse for arguments.
As for the property holdings of ancient socieities - they also fit with the supply and demand theory loosely as the demand for land is tied to the land use and the production. As a means of production it is valuable, and the land grab is economic in nature. But still it does not point to the eternal class war.
Thanks
Anony(1)


16. Dezember 2007 19:27

OSAI Chella said...
//மீண்டும் சொல்கிறேன். புராதன பொதுவுடமை காலம் என்பது கற்பனை. குரங்குகளில் கூட ஒவ்வொரு குரங்கும் தனியாக ஒரு ஏரியாவை வளைத்து அதற்காக சண்டை போட்டு காப்பாற்றிக்கொண்டு மனைவியை தேடுகிறது.

அப்படி மூதாதையரை கொண்ட மனிதன், திடீரென்று பொதுவுடமைகாலத்துக்கு சென்று பிறகு தனியுடமை காலத்துக்கு போனான் என்று கதை விடுகிறீர்கள்.//

So forget Primitive Communism Theory.. what about Primitive Landholding Patterns of Primitive Humans? I will stretch my side from this point.. Catch after 12 hours


16. Dezember 2007 19:31

OSAI Chella said...
Anony... hey leave those rhetorics of underwear.. i just used them to bring some sense of war.. aka Kasporov's Initimidating Tactics in Chess and Aussies Sledging Tactics in Cricket! Ha ha.. if you dont like it.. i will take back those words in spirit!lol! Honestly I love your skills along with Thamizmani and that iswhy I am here. Cheers and see you in the evening (IST). Have a great day.

With love
Osai Chella


16. Dezember 2007 19:38


Anonym said...
ஏதேது, அசுரன் அய்யாவுக்கு மூச்சு வாங்குதுன்னு (நுரை தள்ளுதுன்னும் வச்சுக்கலாம்) செல்லா அய்யா களத்துல இறங்கிட்டாரு போல.

இது தமிழ்மணியின் கவனத்தைத் திசை திருப்பும் முயற்ச்சி எனக் கருதுகிறேன்.

இரு பரிந்துரைகள்.

1. அசுரன் வாதத்தை நிறைவு செய்யும் வரையில் செல்லாவுடனான விவாதத்தை நிறுத்தி வைக்கலாம்.

2. அல்லது, இன்னொரு பதிவிட்டு அங்கு செல்லாவுடன் விவாதிக்கலாம்.

- அனானி #84599848294823423


17. Dezember 2007 06:08

Anonym said...
Dear Osai Chella ,

I was not the one who brought in underwear into the debate. So it for you to leave it. I am not intimidated by silly abuses, which you might have guessed by now, as I am debating the likes of Asuran.

Your comment
//I still belive Communism is the best noble deal around.//

Ok. You are free to believe in anything. It does not change the reality, that Communism is the unattainable ideal similar to the re-birth, Judgement day, Kingdom of Jesus. All beliefs are "blind faith" in this sense, and we are not debating beliefs here.

As for the land holding pattern in ancient times, it is similar to what we have now. and it has indeed spraked wars. The land as the "means of production" in the Marxist sense has been there from time immmemorial. Land grap by the primitive man must have happened the same way he hoarded the other valuables such as tools, future savings of foodstuff etc. Still it does not point to "class war".
Thanks
Anony(1)


17. Dezember 2007 08:02

58 Comments:

செவ்விந்தியன் said...
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பிடரல் காஸ்ட்ரோ said...
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தியாகராஜன் said...
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said...

saw the above three comments. i can not engage in intellectual warfare in this situation! kindly do the needful by deleting and moderating this comments thread. catch you tomorrow

Sridharan Ramanujan said...
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said...
Dieser Kommentar wurde vom Autor entfernt.
said...

தேவையில்லாத மறுமொழிகள் நீக்கப்பட்டுள்ளன

said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

In most western countries, criminal cases place the burden of proof on the prosecutor - sometimes referred to by the latin legal expression "ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non que negat" (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies). The principle that it should be is known as the presumption of innocence, but is not upheld in all legal systems or jurisdictions. Where it is upheld, the accused will be found not guilty if this burden of proof is not sufficiently carried by the prosecution.

ஆகவே நண்பர் ஓசை செல்லா சொல்வது தவறு.

Onus of proof rests on the one who asserts.

said...

Why the term in MOST WESTERN COUNTRIES.. any excemptions! lol! But loved the below wiki article since you have asked ASURAN to show the YOUTUBE video of Primitives!lol! Just Joking.. you never asked so!

In philosophy, the term burden of proof refers to the extent to which, or the level of rigour with which, it is necessary to establish, demonstrate or prove something for it to be accepted as true or reasonable to believe.

All logical arguments depend on certain premises being accepted for their conclusions to follow, and most logical arguments require a certain level of informality to be stated in a compact and comprehensible form.[1] Therefore it is always possible to seek to discredit an idea by suggesting that the Burden of Proof should be set to an inappropriately high level. For example when behaviourism was the dominant ideology in the study of animal behaviour, but social conditioning was dominant in human behaviour according to Mary Midgley.

there was a remarkable discrepancy between what was treated as a parsimonious explanation for a piece of human behaviour and what could count as such when the behaviour was of some other animal. The practice was that, in the human case, the normal, indeed practically the only, licensed form of explanation was in terms of culture or of free deliberate choice, or both. Anyone who suggested that an inborn tendency might be even a contributing factor in human choices tended to be denounced as a fascist. The burden of proof was accordingly laid entirely on this suggestion, and it was made impossibly heavy. To put it another way, any explanation that invoked culture, however vague, abstract, far-fetched, infertile and implausible, tended to be readily accepted, while any explanation in terms of innate tendencies, however careful, rigorous, well-documented, limited and specific tended to be ignored. In animal psychology, however, the opposite situation reigned. Here, what was taboo was the range of concepts that describes the conscious, cognitive side of experience. The preferred, safe kind of explanation here derived from ideas of innate programming and mechanical conditioning. If anything cognitive was mentioned, standards of rigour at once soared into a stratosphere where few arguments could hope to follow.[2]

The logical fallacy which she is exposing in this case is the attempt to argue that view A is to be preferred to view B because "B cannot be proven" when the burden of proof is laid on view B to an impossibly heavy level, and in particular to a level under which A could not be proven either.

Keith Lehrer suggests that "generally arguments about where the burden of proof lies are unproductive. It is more reasonable to suppose that such questions are best left to courts of law where they have suitable application. In philosophy a different principle of agnoiology [the study of ignorance] is appropriate, to wit, that no hypothesis should be rejected as unjustified without argument against it. Consequently, if the sceptic puts forth a hypothesis inconsistent with the hypothesis of common sense, then there is no burden of proof on either side …

said...

நண்பர் தமிழ்மணி அவர்களே வணக்கம்! விசயத்திற்கு வருவோம்!

சேமிக்க முடியாத ஒரு வேட்டையாடும் அல்லது பழம் பறிக்கும் கூட்டத்தில் அன்றைய உணவு அன்றே பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப்படும். நாளைய தேவைகள் பற்றிய அக்கறை நிச்சயம் இருக்காது தானே! அந்த சேமிப்பு அற்ற சூழலில் ஒரு குழு வியாபாரம் செய்திருக்க வாய்ப்புகள் இருந்திருக்குமா நண்பரே! சாதாரண கேள்விகளில் ஆரம்பிப்போம்!
அன்புடன்

ஓசை செல்லா

said...

Let me change my stance... yes it is disputed wrt Primitive Communism as stated here honestly! I too must be swift enough to accept the modern thinking! What do you think!!

said...

//Why the term in MOST WESTERN COUNTRIES.. any excemptions! lol!//

excemptions do not make rule! lol!

// In philosophy a different principle of agnoiology [the study of ignorance] is appropriate, to wit, that no hypothesis should be rejected as unjustified without argument against it.//

That is why I am arguing against it.

// Consequently, if the sceptic puts forth a hypothesis inconsistent with the hypothesis of common sense, then there is no burden of proof on either side …
//
This is nonsense. Let us say I claim that Chella's ancestors came from different planet, It can go against the commonsense. But Still, I got to prove it. You cannot wash away the burden of proof from the person who claimed it.

said...

//நண்பர் தமிழ்மணி அவர்களே வணக்கம்! விசயத்திற்கு வருவோம்!

சேமிக்க முடியாத ஒரு வேட்டையாடும் அல்லது பழம் பறிக்கும் கூட்டத்தில் அன்றைய உணவு அன்றே பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப்படும்.
நாளைய தேவைகள் பற்றிய அக்கறை நிச்சயம் இருக்காது தானே! அந்த சேமிப்பு அற்ற சூழலில் ஒரு குழு வியாபாரம் செய்திருக்க வாய்ப்புகள் இருந்திருக்குமா நண்பரே! சாதாரண கேள்விகளில் ஆரம்பிப்போம்!
அன்புடன்

ஓசை செல்லா
//
நம்மால் எப்படி கூறமுடியும்? விலங்குகளும் கூட பனிக்காலத்துக்காகவும், பஞ்ச காலத்துக்காகவும் சேமித்து வைக்கின்றன. அப்படியிருக்கும்போது மனிதன் அன்றன்றைய உணவை அன்றன்றே பகிர்ந்து உண்டு நாளைய தேவைகள் ஏதுமின்றி வாழ்ந்தான் என்று எப்படி கூறமுடியும்?

Anonym said...

செல்லா அவர்கள் எழுப்பும் ஒரு கேள்வி அடிப்படையில் தவறு. பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப்படும் என்பது ஒரு மேலோட்டமான சொல் பயன்பாடு. இன்றும் சமுக உற்பத்தி பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப்பட்டுத்தான் உலக ஜனத்தொகை வருடா வருடம் பல மிலியன் மக்களாகக் கூடி வந்திருக்கிறது. இதையும் தமிழ் மணி வேறொரிடத்தில் சுட்டி இருக்கிறார்.
எப்படிப் பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப் படுகிறது என்பதுதான் கேள்வி இல்லையா? சமத்துவ சமுதாயத்தில் அனைத்து மக்களுக்கும் ஒரே அளவுதான் உணவு பகிரப்பட வேண்டும். இங்கு ஒரு thought experiment மட்டும்தான் செய்ய முடியும்.
இதைத்தான் ஓசை செல்லாவும் செய்கிறார். அதைச் செய்ய எனக்கு எதிர்ப்பு ஏதும் இல்லை. ஆனால் அதன் வழி கிட்டும் முடிவுகள் வெறும் ஊகம். அவைதான் உணமை என்று சொல்வதோ அல்லது அப்படி ஒரு சொர்க்கத்துக்குத் திரும்புவோம் என்பதோ, அல்லது தற்கால பல நூறு கோடி மக்களையும் அப்படி ஒரு பகிர்வு முறைக்குள் அடைப்போம் என்று சொல்வதையும், அப்படிப் பகிர்வதை விரும்பாதவர்களைச் சைபீரியவில் அடைத்து அடிமைகளாக நடத்திச் சித்திரவதை செய்து கொல்வோம் அது எங்கள் அறிவியல் சிந்தனையின் உரிமை என்றெல்லாம் பேசுவது அசுரன் அண்ட் கம்பெனியின் வக்கிரத் தத்துவம், சிந்தனை, மேலும் நடத்தை. இதுதான் மார்க்சிய, லெனினிய, மாவோவிய, பால்பாட்டிய க் குரூரத்தின் மையம்.
இதை ஓசை செல்லா தன் sophistry மூலம் மறைத்து மேல் பூச்சுப்பூசி விட முயல்வது சிறிது யோசிக்கும் வாசகருக்குக் கூடப் புரியும்.
தன் திறமையாலும் உழைப்பாலும் தொடர்ந்து மிருகங்களை வீழ்த்தும் ஒரு வேட்டையாளி நடக்க முடியாமலோ அல்லது திறமை இல்லாமையாலோ அல்லது சோம்பேறித்தனத்தாலோ சுணங்கி இருக்கும் ஒரு சமுக உறுப்பினருக்குக் கிட்டும் அதே வகை, அதே அளவு உணவுதான் பெறுவார் என்றால் அந்த சமுகம் வெகு சீக்கிரமே தன் உறுப்பினர்களை, குறிப்பாக மிகத்திறமை உள்ள உறுப்பினரை இழ்ந்து விடும் அல்லது அந்த உறுப்பினர்கள் பிரிந்து போய் மாற்றுக் குழுவைத் தன்மையக் குழுவாக அமைக்கத் துவங்குவர்.
மேலும் வெட்டும், அறுக்கும் கருவிகள் உலோகக் கருவிகள் எல்லாம் அவ்வளவு தாராளமாகக் கிட்டாத ஒரு காலத்தில் ஒரு மிருகத்தின் உடலின் பகுதிகள் அவ்வளவு கறாராகச் சமமாகப் பிரித்துக் கூறு போடப் படுவதும் சாத்தியமாக இராது. எனவே பங்கு போடுதல் இங்கு சுட்டப்பட்டது போல 'சமபங்காக' இராது.
பண்டை அமெரிக்க இந்திய சமூகங்கள், இன்றைய நியு கினி வேட்டை சமுகங்கள் ஆகியவற்றின் பழக்க வழக்கங்களைச் சிறிது பார்த்தால் என் வாதங்களுக்கு ஆதாரம் கிட்டும்.
மேலும் உப்புக் கண்டம் போடுவது அல்லது கறியைக் காய வைத்து குளிர் காலத்துக்கோ, மழைக்காலத்துக்கோ சேமிப்பது போன்ற பழக்க வழக்கங்கள் மிகப் பண்டைச் சமூகங்களில் கூட இருந்தன. இவை சேமிப்புக்கும், பின் ஓரளவு உடமையாகவும் மாறி இருக்கவே வாய்ப்பு அதிகம்.

ஒரு சமுகம் தன் வேட்டைப் பகுதியின் வளங்களைத் தாண்டி வளர்ந்த நிலையில் எல்லை விஸ்தரிக்கவோ அல்லது மறு நிலப் பகுதிக்கு நகரவோ முயலும்போது மாற்றுக்குடிகள் அல்லது மக்களோடு பொருதுவதோ, போட்டி போடுவதோ நடக்கத்தான் செய்தது. இதைத்தான் தமிழ்மணி 'primitive warfare' பற்றிய பதிவில் சுட்டுகிறார்.
அனானி-2

said...

Hello I just entered before I have to leave to the airport, it's been very nice to meet you, if you want here is the site I told you about where I type some stuff and make good money (I work from home): here it is

said...

Chella,

Reg land grab : the approach and argument is flawed. All cultivable lands were virgin lands once and they were brought under cultivation since time immemorial by the effort or intiative of a single man (with the co-operation of his family or associates in post-primitive societies). There was no land grab as such. Only farmlands grabbed thru wars and violence can be termed as grabbings.

A good example in recent centuries is the deveoplement of US west. That the red-indians lands were grabbed is not disputed. those were only a small part. but there were millions of aquare miles of virgin lands which were free with no human activity. and the US govt in the 18th and 19th centuries alloted a standard 160 acre sized land for anyone who applied. It was on a first come first served basis. Severel new immigrannts from Europe in search of better life and freedom grabbed the oppurtunity and moved deep west into California, etc. Each family struggled to cultivate the 160 acres alloted freely and after decades of struggle and pioneering courage, haranessed the full potential of their land.

The same story must have happened everywhere since man settled down after stopping nomadic 'hunter-gatherer life'. Individual effort that co-opts the voluntary co-operation of fellow humans into productive, organised activity.

As individual potential, intiative, organising effort and motivation vary, only those with drive and enterprise succeeded while the rest became 'workers'.
It must not be forgotton that all men started the race on equal footing with no 'assets' or 'capital'. this is the basis of free market capitalism.

Using violence and mobs to grab farmlands cannot be equated with this enterprise.

and within the past 50 years, hard working and enterprising tamils from drylands of Kongu belt migrated to Karnataka and bought lands (of leased them intially) ; and dramatically improved the yield and productivity of the fertile lands of Karnataka of Kollehal, etc. The resulting prosperity and development of tamils there sparked jealosise and violent oppression of tamils.

Same story in Malaya where the immigrants like Chinese and Indians out performed natives.
that the immigrants deveopled not using violence or undemocratic methods but by legal and pioneering efforts is very important point that is being obscured in all the chauvinsit slogans.

said...

நன்றி அதியமான்

said...

I accept the alternative views. BUt can we see some alternative points... Market survives because of uncertainity and ignorance .. and hence the capitalism! If living with inherent flaws of the system then the system may colapse in an enlightened society! I already told in my blog about my small tint in Capital Market as a sub broker .. this zero sum game etc are making me to think that how inefficient is this capitalistic aproach.. if you you consider the humanbeings as a mega group!

said...

moreover we are not using market in transport.. aka buying a bus ticked... why it is fixed?! cause it is convenient! So we are already living in a mixed economy model.. arent we?

said...

GREED based motivation (of market economy) is the single largest sin of the humanity.. that brings in arms race, debt accumulation of US ( the worlds largest kadankaaran), corruption, imbalance in growth, testing drugs on primitive africans and many more mass crimes.

said...

///moreover we are not using market in transport.. aka buying a bus ticked... why it is fixed?! cause it is convenient! So we are already living in a mixed economy model.. arent we?///

Dear Chella,

Prices are 'fixed' by govt which monopolises the transport sector with disastrous results. in an ideal free market condition, they can be floated as per demand and supply. as it exists in lorry tarrifs, etc. Price theory is very important and the correct, undistorted price sends correct signals to consumers and producers, balancing demand and supply.

Greed is ill defined. if there was no greed in entrepreners like you and me, this free blogger or net or cell or other modern industrial revolution would never have occured and we would still be in stone age. the pertinent point is ethics, rule of law and fundamental rights. if they are violated in accumulating wealth, then it is wrong.

I too was once a share broker at CSTH, Cbe in 1991. actually matured and transparent stock markets help in converting human resource into economic resource. it is the ideal and most democratic method for raising new capital for large ventures. a good and healthy company in need of more capital for expansion can easily tap into a new issue if it maintains a good track record and brand name. Like the Laksmi or LMW groups of Coimbatore.

Suppose you enlarge your web consulting business into a million dollar company in futre (best wishes), you too may need the stock market to raise new capital, etc. Actually being an entrepreneur is the greatest thing in this world. We create wealth, employment and help in reducing poverty thru higher tax revenues for govts. and this culture is only new to us. all these decades we were investing our savings only in gold or band FDs or land. Whereas a healthy and growing share market can increase the overall wealth for the nation. Venture capital is the highest form of free markets. Many giants and startups like MS (Bill Gates) were funded by such VCs in the past. if only this culture grows here, then there would be more industries, more employment and more revenue for govt. imagine the stituation in your native village in the 60s, with no industries or capital markets or oppurtunities then. Coimbatore is booming only due to this entrepreneship culture.

so all this superflous talk about greed is just that. And never confuse US polices for free enterprise capitalism. both are different. we can look at Netherlands, or Japan.

Anonym said...

Dear Osai Chella,

GREED IS GOOD.

Greed is the basic human quality which propels him to take risks anyone else would not take and expand the horizons. In a way, every man is greedy. That is why he goes to study, looks for a better job, looks for better living conditions. A self-satisfied person will not progress in life but will be stagnant. That is why though imperial ambitions of the past kingdoms created havoc, it also advanced civilisation. Imagine a society where no one is greedy, you will see a socitey which does not produce anything worthwhile.

But Greed can also turn into a monster and that is why a democratic govt is necessary ,giving chance to every group to voice their grievance. That is why "withering away" of a state, is impractical and nonsense. That is why the growth of middle class with a conscience is necessary. That is why democracy based growth , though it has ups and downs, has a self correcting mechanism.

Anony(1)

said...

//I accept the alternative views. BUt can we see some alternative points... Market survives because of uncertainity and ignorance .. and hence the capitalism! If living with inherent flaws of the system then the system may colapse in an enlightened society! I already told in my blog about my small tint in Capital Market as a sub broker .. this zero sum game etc are making me to think that how inefficient is this capitalistic aproach.. if you you consider the humanbeings as a mega group!

//

gross misstatement.

சந்தை என்பது ஒரு தனி உயிருள்ள விஷயம்.
பல்லாயிரக்கணக்கான random வாங்குவதும் விற்பதும், ஒரு ஒழுங்கை கொண்டுவருகிறது.

இதனை டார்வினின் random mutations எப்படி ஒரு ஒழுங்கை உயிரை கொண்டுவருகிறது என்பதோடு ஒப்பிடலாம்.
இதனை முதலில் கண்டு சொன்ன ஆடம்ஸ் ஸ்மித், டார்வின் போலவே ஒரு ஜீனியஸ்.

Anonym said...

Dear Osai Chella :

You said :"Market survives because of uncertainity and ignorance .. and hence the capitalism! If living with inherent flaws of the system then the system may colapse in an enlightened society! "

Me : Market survives: assumes that market will be dead. No ! Market is all we have from time immemorial and will have in future. Market is the force which gets you what you want and also what you dont need. Buyers beware is the dictum which puts consumers on alert. We had bad market in socialist countries, which resulted in big queues for bread in Russia and good market in capitalist societies which resulted in explosion of goods and services, thus expanding employment and buying power.

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